#021 - Leading in Crisis Series: Learn

Tiffany Lentz 0:00

I've been here forever.

Robert Greiner 0:05

one

year Really? That's flown by.

Tiffany Lentz 0:08

I know, in some ways, it seems like nothing. And then, in other ways, it's like, wow, I feel like I've been here a long, lot longer than that. You know,

Robert Greiner 0:16

it doesn't feel like I've known you for that long.

Tiffany Lentz 0:18

I can count. Almost on one hand maybe to the number of people I've met in person, like in person.

Robert Greiner 0:25

What's your start date?

Tiffany Lentz 0:26

June 8

Robert Greiner 0:27

Nice. Well, happy year anniversary. That's great.

Tiffany Lentz 0:30

Thank you.

Robert Greiner 0:31

I'm surprised. I would have guessed you'd been here eight months. If I had been quizzed when I joined the zoom? Yeah, probably eight months, huh? But there we go.

Tiffany Lentz 0:41

Interesting.

Robert Greiner 0:43

Nice. Very cool. Yeah.

Tiffany Lentz 0:45

I'm pretty excited. I've gone through fits and starts of feeling like I haven't been doing enough. And gosh, there's so much to learn. And then feeling pretty good about the end of the year and being able to take a lot of things I've been researching all year and kind of pull them together into a strategy finally, and find a home for myself and my work. So

Robert Greiner 1:07

yeah, that's great. Very cool. We're on our last step number four, learn.

Tiffany Lentz 1:14

That's what I thought.

Robert Greiner 1:15

Minimum Viable crisis leadership model, level one have a shorter name for it. Maybe I just won't, at this point.

Tiffany Lentz 1:23

What would the letters be?

Robert Greiner 1:25

MVCLM

I don't know. I'm hoping someone is lost as me is googling around at the next crisis. And finds our discussions. That would be nice. So

Tiffany Lentz 1:37

I mean, there's nothing wrong with CLM. all by itself, then.

Robert Greiner 1:42

It's not comprehensive, though. Like it's more. Okay. iclm CLM.

Tiffany Lentz 1:47

Oh, I don't mind iclm at all

Robert Greiner 1:49

the little eye icon.

Tiffany Lentz 1:51

Yeah, that's kind of clever. Dude. That's clever. I like it.

Robert Greiner 1:56

Well, you heard it here. I

Tiffany Lentz 1:56

don't think I don't think Apple has patented. The use of the tiny I like you cannot use the lowercase I and it's internet. Right.

Robert Greiner 2:05

So like Internet Mac

internet pad?

Tiffany Lentz 2:07

Well, yeah. Oh, right. Right. Yeah.

Robert Greiner 2:10

Yeah.

Tiffany Lentz 2:11

So yours means something different. Yeah.

Robert Greiner 2:12

Individual Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Which is what you think of iPad, you sort of think of? For you? Yeah,

Tiffany Lentz 2:20

technically, I Oh, that that makes it even more clever. I'll bet they didn't think of that when they're not even they're that smart?

Robert Greiner 2:26

Oh, you don't think so? I always thought it was intentional.

Tiffany Lentz 2:29

Really?

I mean, I don't know Steve Jobs is really was really smart. But I don't know that. Did he think about every angle of what the I would do.

Robert Greiner 2:36

or was it serendipitous.

Did someone realize that? Maybe after the fact? Yeah. I don't know.

Tiffany Lentz 2:41

I guess we'll never know. Never, know

Robert Greiner 2:42

I'm sure anyone who was involved with say it was intentional.

Tiffany Lentz 2:47

It'd be much more, it'd be much more entertaining and transparent. And like leadership II conversation if they didn't like our topics, if you if one could admit how much was skill versus timing versus serendipity versus

Robert Greiner 3:03

so it's funny. You mentioned that you watched Breaking Bad I'm sure, right? Oh, yes,

Tiffany Lentz 3:09

I had, I had strep throat. And I binged the whole thing in like five days.

Robert Greiner 3:13

s all the time. You just play: 1000

And we've we've threaded learning through this entire topic. I think like every, every episode, I think we've we've pulled on a thread of learning or a thread of reflection, I think there's a lot to there's there's so much to glean from every single day's worth of reflection, whether it's micro or macro, or a conversation for everything from a conversation that could have been handled better to a mass communication to a big decision, you almost get into thinking about in this scenario, what would single double and triple loop learning look like?

Yeah, let let me let's start there. So single loop is, for those listening who don't know, and I'm not super familiar with this triple loop learning is learning how to learn single loop is following the rules. Right? So single mode, you know, it's like, if the room is too cold, turn up the heat kind of thing. Um, so not a lot of complexity there. Limited reactions, you know, those kinds of things. And the double loop, they say, sort of changing the rules, so you can reflect on whether the role should be changed, right? We this happens in organizations all the time. So double loop is very healthy. This happens in government, like any human endeavor, double loop. Make sense? You don't just do things to do things. And mindlessly, you think about, hey, this, when I go down this path, it's kind of awkward. What if we did it this way. And so some people may call that thinking outside the box, but you know, I kind of view it as more linear, like, we're very incrementalist as, as humans, right, we very rarely do like a quantum leap, it's always 100 little things that coalesce into a bigger thing. So if you if your organization is not constantly looking at changing rules, which is hard to do, because they're hard enough to like, get, get everything approved and codified and written down, and then then you have to go and change. And that's tough. And then triple loop, learning about learning. So we're reflecting on how we learned in the first place. So you're sort of thinking about almost thinking about role generation, in that case, right. So you can understand more about ourselves. beliefs, perceptions, like the underlying factors, or a double loop learning about double loop learning, which that's very meta,

Tiffany Lentz 7:22

what I, I think about when I hear the different definitions, applications, whatever that you're giving these is, when you mentioned the word complex, there's, I see single loop learning as really only applying to a complicated situation, double loop, probably also complicated, maybe maybe a complex situation, triple loop learning would be the only way to deal with a complex situation like the one we've been in. So you'd have to, you'd have to apply single loop learning and sometimes double loop learning to the micro details of the experience that you had, as a leader inside COVID. The very predictable components, right? So that the the word that that sticks out to me that seems to align with single is predictability, the outcome will be x. If I'm too hot, I turned down the heater, then I will cool off, like a plus b equals C, and there's no there's no deviation from that. Which means that a complicated problem, a simple or a complicated problem could be could be reflected on and addressed with single loop learning. Double would double loop learning would apply to complicated things, and perhaps a complex scenario. But triple loop learning is designed for complex problems.

Robert Greiner 8:41

Yeah, and it's reflecting on the really the entire system, I think, is what you're saying. Yes, soccer popped into my mind, I guess to begin with, I don't know if this is going to be right. But there's each every game is sort of unique in what rules are enforced and how strictly right, there's a common rulebook, which you might think of as the single loop. You know, this is a foul this kind of thing. But then when the game is in flow, there's like a human referee and human players and human coaches, and they're all sort of in negotiation around what the rules are, how they're enforced. Sometimes you hear like the referees really letting them play today, or they're really strict today, you know, those kind of things. And so you're, even though the rules themselves don't change there, there's a there's almost a recognition of how the game is being officiated and people adapt accordingly. When you get into triple loop though, it's really, I think, questioning and rewriting not only the rules themselves, but what like, what's the intent behind them, you know, this, this role is here for player safety, but it really negatively impacts over in this other space. Like let's try to address these things sort of together. Maybe as a way that you're talking about dynamics you're talking about, almost like he may get a conversational yellow card where you and I may discussing it. Problem an issue, but then the way we're engaging in the discussion is not appropriate. Right? And so it's like, let's change how we talk about this so that we can address this other thing. You almost it's like an almost an onion or something, I think is Yeah, I went from soccer to conversation. But, you know, as we talked about, I think that triple loop is always kind of alluded me. But that makes a little bit more sense where you're incorporating architecting more, and sometimes you have to change things about the process. So you can even get to the point where you talk about the issue that kind of,

Tiffany Lentz: 10:29

it's funny that you say the triple loop eludes you, because I feel that way too, yet, I think people observing us would observe the exact opposite, because we are both kind of kind of designed as systems thinkers. And the it's, it's pretty natural actually, to look at the system in its components, and then look at the whole and then look at the bigger system, you just do it without thinking about it sometimes. And that really is that's the triple loop learning the piece that keeps reflecting on how the pieces are connected, and how the bigger pieces should be. Should should be adjusted to address the micro.

Robert Greiner: 11:07

Yeah, maybe,

in some sense, that's what this podcast is. I think there's there's a danger here. And, and the reason why we're kind of nerding out about this is, it's important to think about what we mean, when we say learn, if you're in a single loop state of mind, and you're just breaking rules to break them. That's not that's where I think dysfunction comes into play. There has to be this consideration, you know, it's like master the rules before you break them or things like that, right? That's kind of a, maybe a good way to think about is like understanding what is in place, thinking through the consequences, and then choosing to go down a different path is that's where the double of coming, it comes in. It's a little too naive, just to say, just to break the rules. Okay, so in this, we're talking about double loop and triple loop learning, then, when we're when we're talking about the

framework,

Tiffany Lentz: 11:57

probably,

probably Yes, I think so. I think so. I think there are probably some single loop items that would come in, but they are less, they're less impactful, almost. So double and triple are more interesting in dealing with the level of complexity of the last several podcasts that we've had all around, you know, crisis leadership, I would bet I'm thinking about some of the other like one of your other topics here around journaling around the discipline of journaling, so that you can reflect constantly on your learnings. I would bet that even that trying to get into that habit wouldn't just be difficult, because of the time management standpoint, I think it would be difficult because you almost don't know where to start.

Robert Greiner: 12:40

Yeah, totally. So I got this advice a year ago, and I do not have a journaling habit. But I think it's a key aspect, at least in a crisis. So I use day one, it's on the Mac, it's on the phone, you know, things like that. And it's a private, you can think about like private social media, right? So you can put posts in there, you can put pictures, videos, whatever, but nobody can see it. And so it's perfect, because the thoughts you're capturing are, they'll be combined later, you'll be able to synthesize or distill them later. You don't know what you don't know what anything means right now, because you're in a crisis, you don't have time to think about the future long enough to make sense of what you're writing down. Because you're in this, you sort of collapsed your your timeline. Right. And so and we felt that, I think over the last year, I mean, this time last year, we were thinking days and weeks, right? Now, we're kind of looking at months, that kind of thing, like when are we when are we coming back, you know, those kind of deals. And so I when I think I got enough of a habit, I probably got to 80% right 80% of the time, where when something happened when someone said something smart, when I saw a quote that I liked, whatever, I would open up day one, or I would even sometimes even just have it open. And there's a little like Mac icon, and I would just write it down. And then it's there. And I didn't look at anything for a year. I just captured. That's it. And what we're talking about now is a is a synthesis, a pass through a journal of the last year where I said, one thing I wrote down is I don't know what I'm doing in a crisis. I felt really good about my skill set. I got promoted in January, I felt really good about my ability to lead in good times. But that's so easy, comparatively speaking like that, you know, we are beneficiaries of a tide that raises all ships, right? And those, that kind of thing. And so I wanted to make sure even if I could create something that if I had a brief moment to go back in time and hand something to me like this would be useful. So this is kind of, you know, my first stab at that and journaling is good. And if whenever you get that feeling like something surprises you or moves you, you know, and you can get to the point where you write it down, not even all the time but 80% of the time, I think you'll be in a good place and you can always just review it later.

Tiffany Lentz: 14:55

Yeah, that's I have a habit of journaling. I have like up to Prayer meditation journal that I write in regularly. But it's it's very it's, I won't say I can't say it's narrow, but it doesn't have it has more to do with like reflections of my, my spirit. My other self, you know, as I don't write about my much about like my daily events or I might write about how something I'm rethinking about something or something that I'm dealing with and needing to parse out. But I don't like this type of journaling. I do very little of almost none, probably none, actually. Which then is frustrating when I would like to have set have something to go back and kind of reflect on, I have to draw almost exclusively on, you know, memory or being able to dig up an email or something. It's certainly not the best way.

Robert Greiner: 15:52

Yeah, and I can't remember if we've talked about this, but two images that I have there, within the first 10 entries. So again, this time last year, one was this Olympic Japan Olympic countdown timer, like a big clock, with these little characters by it and stuff. And it was like, yeah, countdown to the 2020 Olympics. And it was supposed to be like, really? Yeah, Japan got all this credit for, like this really stellar logo that they made. And everything was there's a lot of optimism around, you know, this thing going really well. And then it all kind of evaporated. And then I think I mentioned the Champions League last year. So soccer, a couple of teams playing and one of them is PSG. So, and there were no fans in the stands, and this was before they had the fan noise sort of piped in, and it even cut, the artificial noise reacts to what's going on, right. But it was it was completely silent in this super large Stadium, one of the largest stadiums in the world. And it sounded like an indoor volleyball game, like you could hear the players yelling, and it was like they would score a goal. But there was no like, you know, energy from the crowd kind of thing. It was very, very bizarre. And those two things still stick in my mind around like, Oh, my gosh, this is this was before in the wave sort of hit the US. And so you could see it slowly coming. We weren't sure what to make of it. And I think those are helpful emotions to reflect on and tie back to when you know, we're over a year into this thing. And fatigue is setting in. And sometimes you question that the decisions you made back then. But it's like, oh, no, those were like who could have known this was all going to play out this way. So that's super helpful. Even if you're not sure if what you're capturing is useful. I think you'll find a way to make sense of it and distill it later.

Tiffany Lentz: 17:38

Yep. That's a really good practice.

Robert Greiner: 17:40

I think it's got to be private, too. This is not, you can't put enough polish on it in the moment to publish it anywhere you get that can come later.

Tiffany Lentz: 17:47

Sure. What's the quote? Write drunk edit sober.

Robert Greiner: 17:52

Exactly.

Tiffany Lentz: 17:53

But you're you're right. In truth. We have to be completely private. Because then I think you'd be free to share your frustrations as well.

Robert Greiner: 18:04

Yep.

Tiffany Lentz: 18:05

frustrations with, you know, situations. People yourself everything.

Robert Greiner: 18:10

Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Have you talked about the hero's journey yet? We've talked about that.

Tiffany Lentz: 18:16

We've touched on it, but

Robert Greiner: 18:17

either you could think of Harry Potter you could think of Lord of the Rings. Or you're a Harry Potter fan, right?

Tiffany Lentz: 18:22

I am. I am both of those things.

Robert Greiner: 18:24

So it's kind of funny like when so in the hobbit when Bilbo Baggins went in originally sort of found the ring and came back, you know, that was they called the in the book that's all about like the adventure. He was like not the same. He was such a unique being that there was no, he identified more with elves than he did hobbits, right? Like he could not go really go back and live at the Shire anymore. He's like a different person. Same thing happened with Frodo. Same thing with Harry Potter, right? Like you're not, you become something different. I think when you go through something like this, and that that's important to know. And if you look at the trajectory of heroes and villains, heroes are created because they are consistently making the right choice. And villains are created because they're consistently making 100 small, bad choices. And so if you want to be a hero in a crisis, very easy to be a villain too. And it's not sometimes most of the time probably not intentional. I think thinking about the hero's journey and what kind of act towards the kind of person you want to become the kind of leader you want to become. I think it'd be a healthy guide in the moment when you're not sure what to do.

Tiffany Lentz: 19:33

Yeah, that's a really good point. I also like the way you you talked about the villain because it gives the benefit of the doubt to that to assume that it is 100 small bad choices set like one after another set down a path as opposed to someone which there are very there are a few there's a handful, right but the the the population of quote unquote villains, they're not nefarious by nature. They just make some bad decisions and then also are completely changed in Lord of the Rings, obviously smeagol is one of the perfect examples, right of like one little decision after another and then you can't find the person that used to be there.

Robert Greiner: 20:14

And it's

we're talking about fiction, but it reflects the sort of core fundamental truth. And I mean, this science is there, right to back this up when you engage in a behavior, that why you're physiologically changing the wiring in your brain is adapting to the behavior you're, you're exhibiting. And so, I mean, that's why like, we're really big on like our kids not lying. Because, again, like you do it a lot of comes easy. You know, that's a, that's a thing to fight against. But, you know, if you're someone I deeply respect early on in the crisis said, Hey, we're going to go down this path. I'm not super thrilled with the way I behaved in the last crisis. And I'm not, I'm not putting myself in a position where I have to live with that again. So we're going to do this right away. And I was thinking, Man, okay, well, I don't know what to do right now. But I definitely trust you. And let's go. So even if you make a decision, you can always make the right decision later, history is filled with those sort of redemption stories. That's part of the hero's journey to so

yeah,

Tiffany Lentz: 21:14

right. Yeah, it's interesting. There's an element of, of doubling down, that is always so fascinating to me. I could I could research this one until, I don't know, the proverbial cows come home, I guess. Because there is something about there's something so illogical sometimes about people making a bad, making one small bad decision or telling one small lie. And then this idea of condemning, you've heard, you've heard and read all and seeing so many examples, but it never ceases to amaze me, one's inability, or one's ability to architect enough of an alter reality piece by piece that you keep doubling down on a bad decision. And sometimes we see it with clients, when there's a commitment that's been made, that's a big financial commitment, right? Like, you've either either bank your career on a certain partnership, or architecture or something, you know, software purchase, blah, blah, blah, or you have to make it work because somebody else made that decision. That's, that's a little different than the levels of self deception that come from this, those steps one after another that say, if at any point in time, one weren't able to have that aha moment, or that, you know, come to Jesus moment, or whatever you want to call it that says, Wait, I actually can stop this whole snowball. If I if I'm honest about like, here's what happened. Here's the mistake I made, I don't have to make these mistakes. Again, I actually can stop and backup. I had a boss once who used to call that whole process, making sure that you're on the right side of history, even micro, like reflecting constantly reflecting and realizing that because society is complex, and there's so many changes around you all the time, you're constantly miss stepping. And the best you can do is be constantly reflective, and introspective. So that to the best of your ability, you're ending up on the right side of history. I don't this is it. This is a little bit on the forefront of my mind because I'm speaking with someone earlier this week, who had asked my advice about stepping off of a board because of behaviors that they observed that were not quite illegal, but borderline illegal and just asking for some some advice there. And, you know, the best thing I could say to that person was if you're already witnessing this doubling down this sort of small pattern of repeat behavior that's heading in an unhealthy direction, and warnings are going on heard this is this is a harbinger of bad things to come. But I It never ceases to amaze me, the human brain's ability to forget those things, those mistakes intentionally and architect a different scenario in which they make sense.

Robert Greiner: 24:02

Yeah, you've hit on a fundamental I think truth, like almost a first principle of humanity, right, where all the people we lionize is sort of the best greatest leaders on the planet to ever exist. They were all deeply flawed because they're human.

Tiffany Lentz: 24:17

Hmm.

Robert Greiner: 24:18

But they were, in some sense, sort of, like stumbling forward. And there was an maybe an honesty about that. I don't know if that's the right term. And then on the other side, that that doubling down is really what sinks you I think that's like a core you've talked about these behaviors that happen 1000s of times that turn you into the person you eventually become the that idea of doubling down on the on the unhelpful and the negative on that immoral, you know, starting small and it just snowballs, like that's, that's really dangerous.

Tiffany Lentz: 24:49

If I think about and you've asked the question to me before, several times, both in you know, podcast and offline, this idea of what was the thing you learned, what was the one thing you learned what would You know, what would you tell someone? Or what would you tell your past self or whatever? And I get that I like, I was like those kind of reflective questions, but I, it's kind of where I go, in my mind. Here's the micro macro constantly, when when we even talk about journaling, I can't I have to ask myself like, well, what's the point. And the point is, to remember something important to learn from it. That's my point. Everyone else can pick their own definitions of what the point is. But I can't do that without that fundamental belief. That is part nature, part nurture, part, corporate training from lots of people that I respect, reflecting, of being finding whatever, whatever works, or whatever triggers are unique to an individual find a way to figure out how to be honestly, and vulnerably reflective, expect that perfection is never going to be the outcome. But if you can reflect, and you can have people in your life who can help you with that reflection, you are less likely to end up a villain, you're more likely to be able to course correct.

Robert Greiner: 26:05

Yeah, definitely. This took an interesting turn. I think this definitely the idea of creating a playbook, or synthesizing what you've learned that would have been helpful to you like a good proxies, this would have been helpful to me when the crisis started, because there's always someone who's going to be in the same spot, you were at some point in the future. And so that's really helpful. And that'll help sort of galvanize the wisdom and learning in your head so that you can do better on the next one. And maybe that's a good proxy, right? Like, if you think about where you added the last crisis of the last macro global crisis, for us would have been probably the financial crisis 2008 I was more individual contributor then. So I had no, I had no like, material impact on a team or anything like that. And now it's different. Right? And so 10 years from now, when we're, you and I are on episode 357, and we're talking about the next one, then I guess it would be 500 and something but, you know, hopefully that'll will be more effective in that crisis as well, which I think we will, maybe next time we'll talk about some things we can do during good times to inoculate ourselves a little bit, maximize our chances moving into the next one. Kind of like combat training or something like that. Yeah, maybe we'll talk about that.

Tiffany Lentz: 27:21

That's a good one.

Robert Greiner: 27:22

Cool. Anything else on this one?

Tiffany Lentz: 27:25

I don't think so. This is a great way to end this series by the way like with a full reflection

Robert Greiner: 27:30

Yeah,

yeah. Totally unintentional to go. I think these the order. I'm trying to think back decide communicate, forgive learn. I don't I don't know that there was there was a lot of intentionality in the order there. But I think they ordered correctly though, now that we're talking about

Yeah, you to cool. All right. Well,

it's late on Friday, later for you have a great weekend.

Tiffany Lentz: 27:53

Thank you. I will